Laid Off? and What To Do Next with Jacquie Dinershul

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Welcome to the Business Gay Podcast where we talk about all things business, marketing and entrepreneurship. I’m your host, Calan Breckon, and on today’s episode, I have Head of Sales Engineering for Deloitte Canada, Jacquie Dinershul. Jacquie is a technical sales specialist who has worn many hats throughout her career. In fact, she broke into the tech industry just three years ago in a technical sales role with zero experience and more than doubled her income in just under two years. Jacquie currently leads sales engineers at Deloitte Canada and is a sales lead for multiple product teams. Soon, Jacquie will be transitioning into a role that will specialize in system applications and products and partnerships across the firm. She is also currently spearheading a firm wide initiative to change policy for inclusive family planning benefits within Deloitte to be more LGBTQ+ inclusive. Outside of her role at Deloitte, Jacquie is the founder and leader of Queer Women in Tech in Toronto and also partners with various queer and women focused initiatives within the tech world. Additionally, she is a pre sales leader within the presales collective community and often hosts workshops related to demoing successfully with a focus on storytelling. I am super excited to speak with Jacquie Today about making big transitions in your career and creating purpose inside of your role that maybe wasn’t necessarily in the job description. So with that, let’s jump in.

[00:02:08] Calan Breckon: Welcome to the podcast, Jacquie. I am so excited to jump in with you today. How you doing?

[00:02:14] Jacquie Dinershul: I’m doing great. How are you doing?

[00:02:16] Calan Breckon: I’m doing pretty magical. Thanks for asking. So today we are talking about transitions and careers and all sorts of good stuff because we know out there in the markets right now, it’s very wonky. I know as of the recording of this, Spotify just laid off a bunch of their people. So lots of layoffs are happening. Lots of things are happening. But you’ve kind of been through something like this before, so you’ve made that jump from not in the tech sector to in the tech sector. You’ve gone through all this kind of stuff. So how about you walk me through that? A little bit of your background of how that kind of came together.

[00:02:53] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah, absolutely.

It is definitely an interesting time to be talking about this, so I’m glad we are. So I come from a varied background. I’ve done a whole bunch of stuff throughout my career, most notably, which people love to hear about. I was running a live music venue and cocktail bar, which surprisingly tons of transferable skills, worked a lot in real estate, was in buyer’s market and procurement, and in a US market with steel and construction.

And so a lot of stuff. And nowhere in there do you hear tech. And so when I sort of decided to make that shift or start learning a little bit more, it was definitely intimidating. And so I definitely want to acknowledge that and speak to how those decisions are not easy, but I think I approached it very much like a sponge. I just wanted to learn as much as I possibly could. And you’ll find often when you reach out to folks and ask for their story, they’re very willing to tell you. And that was the incredible part about networking with so many people and just really reaching out. I revamped my Linkedin to sort of cater towards a more tech and sales focus, like specifically tech sales focused bio and CV, highlighting those things. And then I just started reaching out to folks. And I think the important thing there is to know that you’re worth the time and to approach people knowing that you’re worth that time. And that even if you give me 15 minutes, tell me how you did this. Tell me what you learned. Tell me about what exists out there. Because when we look through, whether it’s various job sites or LinkedIn, there’s very specific roles, some things that are very commonly heard of, and some things one has never heard of until they ask. And then there’s a whole bunch of other stuff that no one’s going to tell you about or post about. And you may not even understand what it means when you’re looking at the job descriptions. And I think this is where it’s really important to rely on other folks to tell you, to ask as many questions, to listen really intently. And for me, again, it’s that sort of sponge. I was just taking it all in. And from there, I learned about this role in the presales world called a sales engineer, a solutions consultant, sales architect. There’s a lot of different names for it, but essentially it’s all things, presales, technical presales. And I got into the presales collective that way. And that was just like a sea of people from so many different backgrounds and this really sort of niche role. And I just continuously kept reaching out to people, specifically women and LGBTQ plus folks. I sought those people out, specifically SEO. I was like, tell me your journey. Tell me about your obstacles. Help me. Tell me stuff.

And so that’s the approach that I took. And then in some serendipitous way, through a lot of hard work and conversations, I got my foot in the door as a sales engineer for a Martech company within Toronto.

So that was the journey of transitioning into tech. I also have experience Delayoff. So we can get to that maybe later.

[00:05:53] Calan Breckon: But I was actually just going to ask, is that how this came about? That you were laid off and you’re like, well, I guess it’s time for a change?

[00:06:02] Jacquie Dinershul: Well, no. So the layoff actually came from this job. So my current role where I work for Deloitte was sort of a reaction to the layoff from that startup that I was just mentioning, the marketing tech.

And it’s very interesting to be laid off because I think there are signs for it often. And there were signs here, but still you’re like, oh, it’s going to happen. But when it happens to you, you’re still shocked. And so it was such a shocking moment and a lot of panic, but I think I approached it. I took a couple of days to be like, what the hell do I do? What is my life?

And my partner at the time had to remind me of that because immediately it just like, you start to panic a bit. Or you’re like, what do I do? What do I want? And she was just sort of like, take a couple of days. It’s like a Wednesday or Thursday, take a couple of days. Monday, hit the ground running if you want to. And that’s exactly what I did. And truly, I will say the two weeks after that layoff, I was busier. Setting up phone calls, talking to people, applying, networking, reaching out to old friends, new friends, everyone you could possibly imagine. I was busier doing that than I was busy in my job for the last six months. So that’s pretty telling in and of itself. But I really approached it like a full time job. Like nine to five. I was talking to people and it wasn’t even, oh, hey, I’m looking for a job. But, hey, what’s going on with your company right now? What have you heard? Who do you think I should talk to. These are the things that you know about me. These are the things you don’t know about me. Who is the right person to connect me with? And like this, it just went round and round and round, and it brought me to delight. And it wasn’t for lack of hard work and hustle and putting pressure on, because, again, if you believe you are worth it, you can make things happen.

[00:07:48] Calan Breckon: Okay, so I want to dive in a little bit on, like, you made that transition, but let’s back up and go into, like, you went from non tech into tech. Was there imposter syndrome that you experienced while going through that? Because it’s not just like you’re like, oh, I’m going to completely change things. Like, if I were to do that, I’d be like, I have no idea what I’m doing. I’m sure a lot of people out there, especially if they’re experiencing layoffs right now or going through that experience, are going to have that, like, well, I don’t have these skills. I don’t have this experience. Who am I to apply for this job?

[00:08:22] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah, definitely. I was actually reading an interesting stat on impostor syndrome. Women specifically. Supposedly, around 75% of women experience imposter syndrome throughout their entire careers. We’re not even talking about the start of their careers or transfer or anything of that nature. So it was very common for me and almost everyone specifically, also more marginalized groups of people and individuals definitely experience this and continue to. And it’s a hard thing to combat solo, I would say. I think it’s really important to rely on sort of a community within your organization, within your role, outside of your role, within your team and folks outside of your organization as well, talking about it, it’s a very common topic, certainly in a lot of conferences that I’ve attended.

And the truth is, you have to sort of take a look at the things that brought you to where you’re at and double down often on those things, curate your story, talk about your skills, become an expert in those things that you feel confident in, and continue to again, that sponge, perhaps continue to learn as much as you can where you feel like you’re that fraud or imposter or phony or however you want to sort of name it. Because there were so many moments I went into a pretty technical, like, still a sales role. I’m not a dev, I’m not like a real engineer. However, it was a pretty technical sales role on calls with clients. Sometimes I was like, oh, I don’t know that who am I to speak to this? And I think at first there was this knee jerk reaction to plug all those holes and be like, oh, yes, I know the answer. And it’s this and it’s this and pull things out of thin air that perhaps I wasn’t super confident in. And I learned rather quickly, truly, within the first couple of weeks, months, it’s okay. And clients appreciate this. It’s okay to say, I actually don’t know that right now, but I will find that answer for you. And then you just learn like that. You don’t know that answer one day, the next day you’ve learned it. Then there’ll be something else. Then there’ll be something else. And we’ve all gone through it. A learning curve for anything. As babies, we go through learning curves. And this is the truth of just growing as a human being. And so I think being gentle with yourself and the things you don’t know, being honest about it, and also just reaching out, saying, hey, you’re the expert in this, can you help me with that? And I’m the expert in something else. And it may not be JavaScript, right? And it may be storytelling.

And that’s sort of how I approached it. That’s what I specialize in, demoing storytelling. There’s always going to be someone far more technical than me, and I don’t need to double down on that, but rather what I do bring to the table and learn as much about those things that I feel less confident about.

[00:11:15] Calan Breckon: Okay, so when you were applying for these jobs and going through that imposter syndrome before you getting to where you are now, but when you were going through that and applying to the jobs, were there jobs where you were just applying to and being like, well, who knows? And how did you move through that experience?

[00:11:32] Jacquie Dinershul: Definitely. So I will say this sort of like, I think we’ve all probably done it. Like you go on Linkedin, you’re like, apply, apply, right? You’re just like. And it automatically uploads and you’re like, well, don’t have that skill set, but let’s do it. So firstly, as great as that is, I would recommend immediately when you see a sort of job, find a person who works there and talk to them about it first. Make sure there’s this face to face, one on one. You know who I am. Let me tell you a little bit about myself and then apply for the joB. That is just always the best way to do it. And when you get into that room, even if it’s just someone unrelated to the job isn’t going to be hiring you, but can sort of refer you, then you have to really curate your story. And that’s what I did. I had a story. I had a story of how I came from all of these different places and how that’s going to help us achieve what we want to achieve in this job, how those transferable skills are going to work in this role, despite not having this certification or experience with the JavaScript for the last twelve years.

You curate your story based on what you can bring to the table, despite what they say are requirements. Because the truth is, if you’re sitting with someone and you have that story and that confidence and also being humble to say, maybe I don’t know this, but I can learn, that’s what’s going to get you there.

[00:12:57] Calan Breckon: Definitely, I would definitely agree with you on that. I would say that one of the jobs I got in my life wasn’t because I was qualified to be the assistant manager, it was because I had shown so much gumption and energy to learn and I wanted to learn all of these things and I took the initiative to do all those things that people looked and went, hey, we want you to do this because we see these things that you have none of the technical skills, but we know that you can learn them because we’ve seen you learn other skills at a rapid pace and that you’re hungry for it. And I think that that has a lot to do with, you can have the best piece of paper in front of you looking at that person, but if the person sitting in front of you doesn’t match up and they have no interpersonal skills or they don’t have other things that you’re going to need to do the job, that isn’t something you can put on a piece of paper. I think that’s where a lot of people get lost, is they’re like, they get lost in the piece of paper and they forget to bring themselves. Just bring yourself to the interview.

[00:13:57] Jacquie Dinershul: Absolutely. And you totally got it there. There were so many folks that I spoke to like C suite were talking like I can’t even believe I got 15 minutes in their calendar kind of people. And I always posed the question, when you’re looking for folks for your team, what do you really look for? And it really comes down to a willingness to learn authenticity and leading with curiosity. And those things you’re not going to put in a CV, right? Like you sure you can, I’m a curious person, but those are things that you really can gauge truly in probably about five minutes in conversation with someone. So I completely agree with you there.

[00:14:30] Calan Breckon: So we’re obviously in this energy where we’re seeing layoffs. They’re happening, maybe not as fast as I guess a quote unquote normal recession would be happening. Usually it would be a little bit faster or we’d see bigger numbers. Maybe that’s to come in 2024. But if somebody goes through an experience of a layoff, what would you say to somebody who’s been blindsided and how they maybe need to pivot in their career? How can they approach that?

[00:14:59] Jacquie Dinershul: Absolutely. I mean, firstly, feel your feelings. I think that’s a big one.

Definitely. You’re allowed to feel betrayed, sad. Blindsided is a big, scary thing that can happen to people in many different areas of life. So feel your feelings around it. And try to remember, in most cases, this is not true of every organization. There’s a lot of nuances around this, and your corporation or organization or team or manager may say otherwise. But in most cases, layoffs are not about performance, SEO. Do not make it about who you are as a person, what your worth is. I think that’s two really important distinctions to make. Like the economy in the recession doesn’t mean I’m not worthy. Right, SEO, definitely feel your feelings and remember, you are worth it. Now, from there, I think there’s a lot of different approaches. And I think for me, I needed a reminder, and luckily, I was fortunate enough to have someone to remind me to sort of take a breather, feel my feelings. And then I decided to really approach it with all the gusto and just reach out to this beautiful network that I had created over the last couple of years, even just to have conversations, even to commiserate, right? Like, oh, you just did layoffs or you just got laid off, let’s bitch about it, or let’s come up with a plan. So even that, finding your community. And then I think there’s several different ways you can approach it. Did you like what you were doing? Are you just upset because this happened and you were blindsided? And it feels like a betrayal, and I can’t believe these people that I worked with and thought cared about me did this to me. Or was it the job? Was it like, I loved what I was doing so much? And that’s really painful in most cases. A lot of the folks that I’ve talked to over the last several months and year, it kind of was a blessing because they reevaluate and they’re like, whoa, I was kind of getting stuck or I wasn’t doing what I loved. It was no longer aligned with what I wanted to do. I actually wanted to grow in this way. I wanted to start my own business. I’m now like a freelance consultant. I’m a free this. I got more creative. I do pottery. There’s just so many things that come out of what feels like a terrible situation.

So I would definitely encourage a reevaluation of your passions, the things that really light your fire. Because now you have a moment to think about it and then approach those with, again, curiosity and a little bit of grace for yourself. I mean, everyone’s got different situations, and so the financial aspect of this is really important. I think I was just, like, panicking about it. I was like, I’m going to be on the streets.

I want to also acknowledge that people are in a lot of different situations there.

But I would say, really, just take a minute, feel your feelings and figure out what matters here. And then go for it. Go for it in all the ways that we sort of have already talked about for several minutes. Right?

[00:17:48] Calan Breckon: Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Anytime I’ve been blindsided, it’s been really important for me to pause and take time. I’m one of these people who I need the pause. I need to think about it critically, think about it and give myself that time and that space to go, okay, something big just happened. Let’s just sit and not freak out. Let’s just gather information. And I always ask, do I have enough information to freak out?

So let’s gather as much information and then be okay. Yes, you are now allowed to freak out. Or like, no, you’re actually going to be okay. And I also always played that game. Like, you’re like, I’m going to be on the street.

I like to play the worst case scenario out in my head, and this comes from my personal development days. But when I let myself go to the worst possible scenario, the worst, like, I’m living out on the streets and I move backwards from that and I go, okay, well, what are reasons this wouldn’t actually happen? What could I do instead? And my mind starts finding out ways that I’m like, well, I could reach out to this friend or I could reach out to this person. It would suck. But at the end of it, by the time I bring myself back, I go, you know what? It’s not as bad as I thought it would be. It probably could still suck real bad, but it wasn’t as bad. But giving yourself that space to go through that mentally sets you up to be like, okay, I’ve done that. Now let’s move on and move into something. And giving yourself a couple of days, I’m glad you had your partner to be like, let’s wait till Monday. It’s Wednesday. Let’s give yourself a couple of days. Let’s give yourself the weekend to just eat all the bad food and to cry and just feel the emotions, and then on Monday, sit at the computer and be like, okay, where can I start? I think that that is a crucially important part that you touched upon there.

[00:19:40] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you were saying about imagine the worst case and then work backwards. That’s so important because I think so many people do that immediately. It’s like worst case scenario. But you’re right. When you really break it down into steps, so many other pretty bad things need to happen for that to even happen. And we surprise ourselves with all the checks that we’ve put in place to sort of prevent that, even if the layoff happens, which is out of our control. But we have to also give ourselves some credit that perhaps if you really look at it, you actually, without maybe even knowing it, have a plan in place already. Because when you work backwards, you’re like, oh, yeah, I do have this network. I do have this community. Oh, I do have these savings. And this is something else that my partner at the time was really good at. She was just like, okay, if that happens, then what? Well, this is okay, but what about this?

But I guess I would do this. You got to do that for yourself almost to be like, well, this is the worst possible thing that could happen, but I guess I can do that thing to prevent it. Okay, fine, but this other terrible thing. Oh, well, I also have that. So just ask yourself, like, okay, and what if not? And what if this?

[00:20:53] Calan Breckon: So what would you say to somebody who’s facing this? They’ve been laid off and they’re looking for a job or looking for a position, but they’re not finding anything specifically in their field.

What would you say about that?

[00:21:06] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah, I think, again, it comes back to really looking inward before even looking at what’s out there and doing that crazy LinkedIn search and all the job sites and all this, and curating your page and sit down and just write on a piece of paper what you love and then what you’re good at. And from there, make the story, maybe have a career in mind. If there is one that comes to mind, don’t try to put pressure on it or a role. If there is one. And just sort of do this mind mapping of like, hey, I love this. I’m good at this, and how could that fit into this or what I understand of this role or this organization or this career path, and from there, make this story and focusing in on the things you are passionate about and are good at. But when someone hears someone speaking passionately about something that is just SEO much more important than hearing, oh, I’ve worked with this and I’ve done this for six years and I did this for, no, you tell me what passion you can bring to the table, and that is what one cares about. So I think there’s an idea that we kind of hone in on a couple of keywords, if you will. Right, keywords and job descriptions and job roles. But we have to broaden that a little bit because truthfully, this idea of these specialized fields, every skill is transferable if you want it to be. Everything we do in life makes us who we are and makes us better at things or worse at some things. And it’s all a learning journey. And so everything we’ve ever done is going to make us better at our jobs or learn something about it at the very least. And so I think thinking of things in terms of fields or skill sets or particular is a little too narrow at this stage. I really think anyone can make the argument and the story that anything they have done can make them better at their job today, whatever that is.

[00:23:09] Calan Breckon: Yeah, transferable skills are way bigger than you think.

I love what you said, watching somebody talk about something they’re passionate and excited about, totally a different experience than somebody just listing what they do. And I’m thinking of this specifically in regards to pitching because I’ve done some pitching this year and watched. And in regards to pitching, if you’re just listing what your company does and all the achievements and the things, it’s like, okay, I don’t really care about your company. There’s no soul. I’m not seeing a soul. But once somebody gets up there and they talk about themselves and why they did the business or what was the story behind it, you don’t even need to talk about the business and what you do because that initial instinct is for me to want to know about it later. But it’s that curiosity that you’re triggering from that story, from that passion that leads me to want to learn more. And that can be said for the same thing in hiring and moving and transferring and all that kind of stuff is like, if you have that energy, people will be curious about the rest of it. It will come along naturally.

[00:24:13] Jacquie Dinershul: Absolutely. And it’s so funny that you even say that this, like, how companies list off what they’re really good at. I mean, I work at one of the largest firms in the world, and I work with a lot of big enterprise size. And it’s so interesting sort of being in a room with folks who work at these places, and all they do is talk about all the achievements that they’ve mean, these large brands. I could go on Google and find out every achievement that any of these large brands have had, but when you’re in a room with a client who’s experiencing a problem, they want to hear about themselves. How are you going to help me? How are you going to make my dreams come true? And it’s not by talking about yourself. And so the same way you would approach a sort of sale or like, selling well, at least, is the way that I’m trying to coach desperately.

You should approach yourself as well. Right? Like, talk about what you care about, not just the things you’ve achieved, but why you chose to achieve them. What brought you there? What hiccups and blockers did you experience that’s so important? What adversity have you faced?

[00:25:17] Calan Breckon: Yeah, I want to talk about more about the big company, because a lot of times people can feel like a cog in a big company. How do you navigate the feelings of feeling like a cog in such a large organization? Because, say, somebody gets laid off, they come, they get a job, they find one of these big jobs at a big firm. How do they then avoid that feeling of like, oh, I’m just another cog in the machine? Like, I’m going from one job to another. How do you create that passion or create that excitement?

[00:25:47] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah, absolutely. This is something I’ve ruminated on a lot, and there are sort of like, three things for me that it came down to, and one was certainly finding my community within the firm, within my team, outside of my team. I’m a pretty big talker and a connector, in case you can’t Tell. Anyone who’s met me probably knows this and people who haven’t met me as well.

And so I did make it a big part of my onboarding experience, just reaching out to folks and getting involved in ergs and finding a community. That work wasn’t the only thing that connected us, that was really important then. The other thing was finding sort of leadership and executive sponsorship that would be there to support initiatives outside of my role. So a lot of this is not only working within your role, but also outside of your role. And one of the main things that I’ve actually been doing at Deloitte is spearheading an initiative around inclusive family planning benefits. And that’s a huge passion project that has connected me with so many brilliant people across the firm, but on something that is so impactful and valuable and not from a fiscal perspective, not from this matters to the bottom line perspective, but changing lives, like genuinely changing lives and having conversations about all the peaks and falls of a family journey, of a family making and planning journey. And this is very much outside of my scope of work, but this was so full of purpose and continues to be, and I’m so deeply passionate about it and so many folks are. And so that’s incredible. And that’s something that no one took my hand and asked me to do that. In fact, quite the opposite. There’s a lot of blockers for things like this, and that’s what sort of keeps me going. And that’s a purposeful thing outside of my scope of work. And then I would say the last thing is staying sort of persistent on the things that you care about again every once in a while, just reevaluating in yourself. Okay, I do a lot of stuff throughout the day. Eight, nine hour workdays, let’s say, do I do something at least once a day that lights my fire, that is purposeful, is impactful, is valuable. Not from a bottom line perspective, not from just within my role perspective, within my soul. And I think that those little things each day where I’m actualizing the stuff I care about in my heart, in my soul, in my mind, at least something small once a day and staying persistent with that and then getting loud about it when it really matters. So something like, again, the inclusive family planning and find people who will be persistent with you.

[00:28:28] Calan Breckon: Yeah, I think that’s really important. I think it’s really important to because there’s a lot of people out there who have jobs and they’re like, oh, I don’t love anything about it, but analyze, are you making something you love about it, even if you hate it and it’s an awful job? There’s things you can either look for and find or choose, or you can also choose to leave and find something where you will be passionate about it. I’m a little curious about how if somebody does get passionate and find something to push through those no’s that they might hear like, oh, we’re going to leave this alone. How did you be like, no, this is really important. I have to do this.

[00:29:08] Jacquie Dinershul: So a big part of that, especially in a company the size of Deloitte, there’s a lot, of course, red tape politics, people who’ve been at the firm for like decades, people like myself who’ve been there for a minute, comparatively. So it’s really important to find those people who will go to bat for you and be advocates at the table who have far vaster networks and connections and understandings than someone like myself would, being fairly new.

So that was a huge proponent of it, finding that executive sponsorship, that leadership, to help push these things forward. Get me in the room. That’s the biggest thing. Get in the room. And once I’m in the room, I won’t shut up, but I need to get in those rooms. I need to know who I’m reaching out to. So that was a big part of it. And then, honestly, the persistence is key. I know it can feel discouraging at times, but you need to figure out the sort of folks you’re dealing with. These are evidenced outcomes based people. They need metrics, they need data. So get all of that and then stay loud. That’s all it is. Like continuously. Just keep sending the deck if you have to, keep sending that deck. Keep getting more voices at the table. And the louder you are, you’ll realize there’s so many folks who want to be loud with you. The amount of people that have reached out to me and said, hey, love what you’re doing. Put my name down, I’ll come scream with you. And I think that’s what it comes down to. And not dropping it and asking why? Oh, not this year. Why? No, not why. So that’s sort of my journey, at least I’ll let you know. Ask me in a year’s time.

[00:30:44] Calan Breckon: Yeah. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That’s always what thought.

[00:30:47] Jacquie Dinershul: Yeah.

[00:30:49] Calan Breckon: Oh, well, this has been an absolutely enlightening and magical episode. Thank you so much, Jacquie, for joining me on today’s podcast.

[00:30:56] Jacquie Dinershul: Thank you so much. You’re so magical. This was so much fun. I’m so appreciative.

[00:31:01] Calan Breckon: I hope you got a lot out of today’s episode with Jacquie. It just goes to show you don’t necessarily need to be going after a job you know of or aware of. You can go hunting and find something that maybe is outside of your comfort zone, but you can transition your skills into that role and make it something really amazing and beautiful, just like Jacquie did. I want to thank you again for tuning in today. Don’t forget to hit that like and subscribe button. And if you really enjoyed today’s episode, I would very much appreciate a star rating from you. The Business Gay podcast is written, produced and edited by me, Calan Breckon, and if you’re looking to get some free SEO website audit advice can head on over to calanbreckon.com/audit and set one up with me. Or just click the link in the show notes. That’s it for today. Peace, love, rainbows.